Richard Gross got my attention this afternoon as he was engaging in a debate with my brother about How do you share the Gospel with devout followers of other faiths?

Here is the full unedited dialog, sorry for the length.  I want to hear what you think about these kind of discussions and if you agree with Richard or not?

 


Richard Gross • I preach the Gospel by living the Gospel. I keep my mouth shut until asked. I respect and honor others’ beliefs and seek to learn, remaining loyal to my own, and quiet until asked. I extend the hand of hospitality.

Aaron Trank • What if they never ask?


Richard Gross • Aaron – then, as I said, I remain quiet. They have seen it. Converting people is not our job.

Sunday, it can’t be proclaimed unless it is lived first.

Aaron Trank • Richard – That reminds me of the story of William Carey: after he suggested that concrete steps be taken to reach the lost, he was told by an older pastor, “If God wants to save the heathen, he will do it without your help or mine!” Fortunately for all of us, the father of modern missions did not accept the admonition from his senior, but took Jesus’ and Paul’s words seriously! Fortunately for me, my Jewish father had faithful Christian friends who preached to him, even though he NEVER wanted to hear about Jesus. Furthermore, the Gospel can and should influence how we live, but it cannot never be preached without words… that is, if we believe that the Gospel is in its essence that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3,4). None of these things can be conveyed without words… right?

Richard Gross • Aaron –

I don’t know what words of Jesus and Paul you are talking about. The Gospel isn’t preached without lifestyle. I’m so glad your Jewish father had faithful Christian friends. I know well the Jewish journey, and anyone who “preached” the Gospel to me I discarded. When I asked, and then listened, that is when I was ready. I watched, and then I listened. When I asked for instruction, it was provided. I simply said one should live the life and wait to be inquired of the hope that is within them. You apparently believe in the ram-it-down-your-throat gospel because you must have this.

The Gospel is lived without words, best and most effectively preached when desired and sought. It can all be conveyed without words, so no… not right.

BTW, I now find your prior question to be a set-up. So when I answered you, you pounced. Just my feeling over how this bit of dialogue unfolded. You could have stated all your beliefs about Gospel spreading without asking me about “not asking.”

Many Christians have this compulsion to convert all the world before it is too late, as if God cannot do the job without you. Your Jewish father would have found what he was looking for, with or without Christian friends, because God would have brought it to him another way. I knew Christians also, like the ones who would beat me up if i walked on their block, or when they noticed I didn’t have ashes on my head at that time of year (I could cite more), and yet I “found” the Gospel.

Humans think they are so instrumental in preaching the Gospel. They are not. God can raise stones to do the work of God (Jesus’ words, obviously not the same words you speak of). The call is to live the way of God. Even if you so choose to tell me to go into all the world and make disciples of all people, it cannot be done with words. It must be done with lifestyle; it must be done with evidenced change and joy.

Let me share with you the many centuries of missions that rolled over the cultures of indigenous people, bringing a European style Gospel, disregarding local beliefs and customs, oppressing the natives until they capitulated… and such was done here in the U.S. rolling over Native Indians and others, disregarding their own ways as a means of linking them to the Gospel of Love. (BTW, in case you haven’t sensed it, name-dropping doesn’t impress me.)

One last story. I had a lady come to the Hospice Facility where I am the Chaplain. She wanted a tour. Since I was available, I got the task. She was impressed at first, but when she asked if this was a Christian facility, and I said no, she immediately walked out. She wanted nothing to do with it. When I asked her what she would do with a Muslim with stage 4 cancer looking for a care centered peaceful place to spend the last days on earth. She said I would preach him the gospel and convert him, and then let him in. That’s preaching the gospel with words. My take: let’s bring whoever in, and let them see what unfolds here from the caring sense of compassion that is only from the true God. Now that’s preaching the gospel… I believe James calls it pure and undefiled religion.

Richard Gross • I thought I would put this information out, because when I first reviewed it for my staff several years ago, I realized some very powerful applications for so-called Christian (or any sect) evangelism.
You may be familiar with the taxonomies that serve as guides for educational development. There are three domains, cognitive domain (the most commonly known Bloom’s Taxonomy), physical domain and the affective domain (Krathwohl’s taxonomy). The Affective Taxonomy presents the growth, development and internalization of values. The levels of sophistication or development for this taxonomy are summarized are listed below:

1. Receiving is being aware of or sensitive to the existence of certain ideas, material, or phenomena and being willing to tolerate them. Examples include: to differentiate, to accept, to listen (for), to respond to.

2. Responding is committed in some small measure to the ideas, materials, or phenomena involved by actively responding to them. Examples are: to comply with, to follow, to commend, to volunteer, to spend leisure time in, to acclaim.

3. Valuing is willing to be perceived by others as valuing certain ideas, materials, or phenomena. Examples include: to increase measured proficiency in, to relinquish, to subsidize, to support, to debate.

4. Organization is to relate the value to those already held and bring it into a harmonious and internally consistent philosophy. Examples are: to discuss, to theorize, to formulate, to balance, to examine.

5. Characterization by value or value set is to act consistently in accordance with the values he or she has internalized. Examples include: to revise, to require, to be rated high in the value, to avoid, to resist, to manage, to resolve.

I find the vast numbers of those most inclined to feel a need or compulsion to “preach” the Gospel are functioning maximally around level 3. Those capable of sharing the Gospel, fully committed, and prepared to do so, but do NOT feel compelled to preach it all the time, in any venue to whoever will even to whomever will so much as bend an ear, much less lend an ear, are at level 5. Yes, one level is higher functioning than the other.

Values must be internalized before they can be spread. There must be consistent action. To preach a gospel to someone who does not want to listen, such as Aaron brought up in the case with his father, is not level 5 functioning. The Gospel should not be presented in the context of imposition. It is not castor oil, for those who are old enough to know that analogy.

I will confess this, however: the presentation of this material will be dismissed by many as secular, and thus inapplicable. Additionally, I will say that such dismissal would be imprudent and unwise, and that would also be be unfortunate.

Aaron Trank • My father was prepping a lethal dose of meth when his faithful Christian friends called him and invited him to a Jesus rally. They had invited him to events and shared the Gospel with him dozens of times before, but he simply didn’t want to hear it… He got saved that night.
Richard, I’m not particularly interested in your taxonomies, or in your rationalizations against proclamation evangelism. If you want to throw out proclamation, then you must deal with Mark 16:15 and Romans 10:14.

In no way am I saying that proclamation evangelism precludes the need for a lifestyle that agrees with the Gospel. However, this does NOT mean that a lifestyle that agrees with the Gospel precludes the need for proclamation evangelism… That conclusion would need to be backed up with scripture..

Scripture has been absent from Richard’s comments with the exception of an anecdotal reference to James 1:27 (referring to pure and undefiled religion, not evangelism of course).

Was my question a set up? It wasn’t intended to be. Then again, if your answer to the question of how you share your faith is that you don’t share your faith, and then you further claim that your actions fully demonstrate the Gospel such that you have no need to preach it, I take issue. Of course, you could simply say that evangelism isn’t your gifting while referencing the taxonomies Ephesians 4:11, and I would say: “fair enough”.

Richard Gross • Aaron –

You are welcome to ignore the study of human behavior. It let’s me know where you are coming from a bit more. Your “unintended” set-up is rooted in your original question, where you asked how do I preach the Gospel to non-Christians (a summery term). I told you how I do it, and then you say it doesn’t work. Maybe you don’t get it. I told you how I successfully live my Christian life as an evangelistic “tool,” and you tell me it doesn’t work. The you come to twist my words and say, “if your answer to the question of how you share your faith is that you don’t share your faith, and then you further claim that your actions fully demonstrate the Gospel such that you have no need to preach it…” then you take issue with what I am telling you works. People see how I live and ask. It works.

OTOH, if you choose to share your faith verbally, wherever you go, and it works for you, then do it. But I will assure you, that your words will ring hollow if your lifestyle does not reflect the joy, peace, compassion and love that Jesus gives us.

You wanted me to use some more scripture. Fine. The rich young ruler comes to Jesus (note he comes to Jesus) and asks Jesus (note that he asks) what he must do to be saved. When told, he walks away. Jesus does not go after him. The job is done. We do not know what has happened to the man, but leastwise we are told he went away sorrowful… and open door to repentance. I follow this example of evangelism. If you have a problem with that, it’s OK.

Let me add one thing for your benefit. I would not refer to your father’s change in his life by using the fact that he was Jewish. it leaves a totally dishonest impression. Your father may have been born Jewish, but his religion was obviously drugs. He went with his friends because he wanted to, or at least was willing to. Being Jewish myself, the evangelism you speak of, to Jews or Muslims who profess and practice their faith (remember you specifically used the term orthodox in your original question) their faith, nearly all the time becomes obnoxious, disrespectful and intrusive. Adding the fact that your father “listened” as a Jew is deceptive. I am guessing he was an addict first, or perhaps, as you relate, suicidal first. You did not paint him as an orthodox Jew to fit your question. But you did leave that door open for readers to put it together and draw a conclusion that wasn’t true. he may have been preached to many times before, but his Judaism was not the real barrier.

I have no idea how you are using Mt. 16:15. As for Romans 10:14, you are using it, apparently, to justify verbal preaching. I never said I don’t preach. I simply said I wait to be asked, and my lifestyle is my invitation to ask me. My joy, confidence, comfort with God, my visitations, service and ministry is my invitation to ask me.

What you must deal with is Romans 12. I don’t believe it says present your mouth as a living sacrifice.

Why don’t you share your experiences preaching to “Orthodox Jews, devout Muslims, and Mormons?” Why don’t you share how it has gone? Tell us the stories of triumph and failure. Tell us of the response you have gotten from the category of people you have referred to? I am really curious as to how much you have actually succeeded in being God’s tool for conversion through proclamation of the Gospel to the Orthodox.

Sean Trank • Hi Richard, reading your responses has been very interesting. I am wondering how you came to faith? Did anyone ever tell you about Jesus? Did you read something that somebody gave you? Or did you find Jesus without a single person challenging you? You spoke briefly about it, but was that the whole story? Would you have asked if your friends never spoke of it before? As I see it, the parable of the sower is very pointed towards how sharing the Gospel is a process that takes a season or two, but a sower is still required. The seeds fell on all sorts of grounds, not only the fertile ground.

It is interesting that you disqualify a person from hearing the Gospel because they may react in anger or even be obnoxious. I don’t think you can know what a person would do and even if they choose to react that way how is that any different than how they reacted to Jesus or the disciples and yet they still preached the Gospel.

I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you that living a holy life is not important, it is of utmost importance. However, that does not dismiss a follower of Jesus from evangelism. This does not mean every believer must stand on a box or become Billy Graham, yet it does mean being obedient and bold enough to step out of your comfort zone and speak when the opportunities arise. How many opportunities have you squandered in your fear of what people may think or if they may be offended? I am guilty of this. 2 Timothy 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

I am a film producer for Jews for Jesus and I have filmed 44 different peoples testimonies in the last year and all of them have one thing in common. Someone stepped out in faith and spoke the Gospel, including my father. And FYI, my father was told his entire childhood that Jews cannot believe in Jesus and that Christians are the enemy. The first time he heard about Jesus in the 70s he cursed out the speaker and told his friends not to invite him to anymore concerts. The reason he went to the concert the night he was going to kill himself was because he had nothing to lose. According to my father’s testimony, this would be his first and last time using heroin. It was the boldness of a preacher who finally broke the hard soil of my fathers heart and the Gospel came to life. My Father-In-Law has a similar story.

Journeys of Faith Testimony Series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJRWc6VzxHI&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL10AACF90951F3DBA

Aaron Trank • “OTOH, if you choose to share your faith verbally, wherever you go, and it works for you, then do it. But I will assure you, that your words will ring hollow if your lifestyle does not reflect the joy, peace, compassion and love that Jesus gives us.” – I completely agree with you on this point Richard.

Regarding Romans 10:14: It doesn’t say “and how will they hear unless the Holy Spirit firsts prompts them to ask”…

Regarding my father’ testimony. You are free to speculate whatever you like… After mentioning his testimony, I referred back to a video recorded version of it, and realized I was incorrect on several points… My brother who filmed the testimony originally will post a few corrections to my recollection of it.

As for stories of evangelism to Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Mormons, I am happy to provide a few from my personal experience.

I met Ori this past summer in India. He is an Orthodox married man in his early 40’s who came to India to help run the “Beit Yehudi” (Jewish House) in the Parvatti Valley of Himachel Pradesh. I met Ori as he was going from guest house to guest house, inviting everyone to Shabbat. I immediately told Ori that I was a Jewish believer in Jesus, but that I would accept the invitation if the Rabbi at the Beit Yehudi was willing to have me come knowing that I am a Messianic Jew. Ori was visibly shocked by my words, and after a few uncomfortable moments, he left. About half an hour later the Rabbi of the Beit Yehudi came to see me. He was very hostile, and immediately began debating me publicly about my beliefs. I was staying with a group of a dozen Israelis (mixed secular, traditional, and orthodox) who I had spent the last several days sharing the Gospel with (by teaching them about Jesus’ sermon on the Mount, and His Messianic Claims), and my traveling companions were shocked by this Rabbi’s hostility toward me. They said that they would not come to the Beit Yehudi unless I was also invited, and once the Rabbi saw that his actions had turned these Israelis against him, he invited me to come. When I went to Shabbat, Ori seemed very surprised to see me. The Rabbi asked several of the men who helped run the center to sit around me for dinner to make sure that I didn’t speak with anyone else. It was one of the best meals I have had in India! Of course, I had no intention of pushing an agenda under the Rabbi’s roof, so I enjoyed the food, the prayers, and the singing, while praying fervently for the Spirit to work in the room. After Shabbat was over I saw Ori walking through the village, and I waved to him. He came over, and we sat together and drank Chai while talking about our lives. I asked him many questions about his life and background, and after listening to him for about 30 minutes, he stopped talking about his life, and looking very serious, said, “I’ve heard about Messianic Jews before, but I don’t understand how you can believe in Jesus.” I shared the Gospel with him: Sin, Salvation, Savior, Jesus’ Messianic claims, God’s redemptive purpose revealed through Scripture, etc.. By the end of our conversation his brow was furrowed, and he said that he’d have to think about all of this. I finished with the question that I leave every Jewish person with: “If Jesus actually is the Jewish Messiah as He claimed to be, then wouldn’t it make sense for Jewish people to believe in and follow Him?” Ori answered the way I prayed he would, and I told him that I would pray for God to reveal to him whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. Ori thanked me for the conversation, and the prayer, and left. I haven’t heard from him since, but I am still praying for him.

More in my next comment…

Aaron Trank • Also in India, I met a Kashmiri Jewelry dealer named Kaiser. Kaiser was single, 24 years old, and grew up as a devout Muslim. I got to know Kaiser over a cup of Chai after I bought a few items from his shop. Kaiser saw that I wore a wedding band, and told me of his desire to marry, but of his difficulty meeting girls who were committed to purity before marriage. I saw this as a great opening, and told him about how many of my friends were surprised that my wife and I remained abstinent until marriage. He immediately was excited to hear more about my life because we shared the same standard for premarital purity. I shared the Gospel with him, contrasting the ideas about the Bible and Jesus that were different than Muslim points of view. He was interested because no one had ever pointed out these differences before. I asked him if I could pray for him in Jesus’ name according to my beliefs, and he agreed. I then offered him a New Testament. He declined the New Testament, but said that he would love to continue talking with me about spiritual topics in the future. I have had Chai with Kaiser every summer since then, and we have continued the conversation.

Back here in America, I have some friends who are Mormon. I’d rather not use names because I some of my Mormon friends are connected on Social Media, and I don’t want to offend them. However, we’ve had some great conversations as we work together to point out the differences between New Testament Christianity and Mormonism. I challenge their doctrines that go against Jesus’ teachings, and I use the New Testament text to do it. Of course, I never assume exactly what my Mormon friends believe as I have experienced many Mormons who are extremely committed to the Church of Latter Day Saints, but don’t know (or perhaps understand) the Mormon doctrines fully.

Richard Gross •

Sean –
Please don’t be an assumptive moron. You approach me with the same attitude that I have been approached in my early days of coming to the faith. I have already stated that I am fully equipped and ready to speak of the hope that is in me (oh, that’s right; you have read my posts – you must have known that). There is no fear in me to preach the Gospel. And no fear to live the Gospel. And no fear to claim my Jewish heritage – which can get me in far more trouble these days than being Christian. Your presumptions are insulting. My example of lifestyle evangelism (a term used a few years ago; don’t know if it is still used) is a committed life example.

I work with hope every day. Were I not grounded, I could not do my ministry. I work where I doubt you are ready to minister. Judging from you (and is Aaron your brother?) and Aaron’s picture, there are many years between us. To base your “analysis” of everyone’s conversion experience on the basis of 44 individuals is not exactly a firm enough foundation, but I will proceed to tell you my story because you asked, in spite of your assumptions and baseless conclusions.

No, there was no one along the way who approached me and preached me Jesus, the Gospel or anything else. My thoughts as a child were with respect to immortality. My search began as a 7-8 year old. I read books; I imagined; I dreamed.

As a teen, I dated a Catholic girl. As her beliefs were far from mine, I searched them out. Her father was of some help, but from him, and especially his wife, I received quite a bit of resentment, but no instruction… no preaching. It was not their lifestyle either, that stimulated my queries. It was curiosity, and a desire to know my girlfriend. When I was in the Navy, I spoke often with the Jewish Chaplain who fed my broadening perspective (but I always asked). I also talked with the Lutheran Chaplain, who was an extraordinarily nice man. The Catholic Chaplain was a bit too cut and dry for me.

When I got out of the service after my brother was killed in Viet Nam, I was free to search things on my own. I took up the bible. I searched out the myriad of radio broadcasts that spoke “religion.” It was my search. No particular show was recommended to me, no one was there to preach to me. No one intruded on my learning style.

I examined literature of many groups. It was my choice. The easiest way to alienate me was to attempt to “tell” me what I should know. That wasn’t my way to learn. I grew up in NY. There was no shortage of street preachers, groups of youths around to coral me and attempt to preach me the gospel, several who searched to claim a Jew convert on their “record.” But none made sense. I didn’t hold to a God who browbeat potential converts to the faith.

I eventually asked a denomination to send me their representatives. (note: I asked) Eventually, at 21+ I was baptized. Eventually, I left that denomination because it had all the answers. The God I believed in (and still do) was bigger than any denominational prescriptions on what the future held, or how God’s love was supposed to look, both from God and in us.

Thirty-eight years after my baptism, I finished my Clinical Pastoral Education, having received my MDiv. 5 years earlier. Now I am a Hospice Chaplain. I have spent 30+ years as an teacher and principal, and throughout all that time, students and staff would inquire of my beliefs, because of how I lived and how I cared. I also served some 20 or so years as a youth pastor.

Without the right life, kids don’t listen to you. Teens can spot hypocrisy as if it was an explosion. Without the right life, one of compassion and active love, a young person will pin your ears back when presented with words that don’t coincide.

Sorry to disappoint. I am hoping you will not make assumptions again. My path was led by God, as is everyone’s.

Richard Gross •

Aaron –
<<<Of course, I had no intention of pushing an agenda under the Rabbi’s roof, so I enjoyed the food, the prayers, and the singing, while praying fervently for the Spirit to work in the room. After Shabbat was over I saw Ori walking through the village, and I waved to him. He came over, and we sat together and drank Chai while talking about our lives. I asked him many questions about his life and background, and after listening to him for about 30 minutes, he stopped talking about his life, and looking very serious, said, “I’ve heard about Messianic Jews before, but I don’t understand how you can believe in Jesus.”>>>

And so you write an example of exactly what I speak.

<<<Kaiser saw that I wore a wedding band, and told me of his desire to marry, but of his difficulty meeting girls who were committed to purity before marriage. I saw this as a great opening, and told him about how many of my friends were surprised that my wife and I remained abstinent until marriage. He immediately was excited to hear more about my life because we shared the same standard for premarital purity.>>>

Once again you example exactly what I am talking about. And so both of them asked as they got to know you.

So what are we discussing?

Aaron Trank •

I’m sorry Richard, but I will no longer continue this conversation. Calling my brother an assumptive moron crosses a line, and I am no longer interested in hearing from you. I’ve been slapped, punched, kicked, and spit on for witness to my unbelieving Jewish people, and I accept the abuse for the sake of the Message. However, I will not accept abuse from someone claiming to be a Christian, and further claiming to live his life in such a way that the Gospel is preached through his actions alone. Your actions in this dialogue contradict your words.

May God Bless You on Your Journey,
Aaron

Sean Trank •

Richard you just called me a Moron? How is that living the Gospel?

Aaron –
Works for me. Since you continue to misunderstand what I say, it is probably better that way. I do not stand care the false assumptions made by others about my character, being, or dedication to God, made by you, your brother, or anyone else.

Richard Gross • Sean –
What I said was “please don’t be an assumptive moron.” If you heard that as calling you a moron, you have my apologies. Let me be specific to what you said which prompted that comment. I believe you made a rather firm reference to me being too afraid to speak the Gospel.

So how shall I refer to a baseless, intrusive, accusative and totally wrong conclusion? <<<How many opportunities have you squandered in your fear of what people may think or if they may be offended?>>>

Because you have come to this place, do not assume I am in this place, or ever have been. <<<I am guilty of this.>>> So let me ask you (which I should have done), did you call me a coward? Are you saying I am like you? Are you saying that your experiences automatically apply to me?

Here’s another of your assumptive statements <<<It is interesting that you disqualify a person from hearing the Gospel because they may react in anger or even be obnoxious.>>> I never said this. You said this, again making assumptions from what does not come from my sharing or my experience. So I should not have used the word moron. I have no problems with telling you that you spoke with assumptions.

Nor do I have any problem saying you have spoken with ignorance and with disrespect. One never knows one is ignorant until it is pointed out; that is the nature of ignorance. And while you spoke disrespectfully, I will grant that it more than likely was not your intent.

I hope my story was revelatory for you. You seemed to disregard it (one of those acts of disrespect).

I would caution you not to think that you know how the Gospel needs to be preached in every case; or that you know the motives of people; or to presume that you know God’s key to spreading the gospel for any given individual.

Sean Trank • Richard what are your thoughts on
Ephesians 4:15,32
Ephesians 5:21
Proverbs 16:18-19

Richard Gross • Sean –
So again you disrespect my story.

Richard Gross • Sean –
Eph 4:15, 32 You meant the love part or the speaking part (v. 15). V. 32 is exactly what I am talking about (actually v. 15 is also, because the speaking is in love, which necessarily means a timeliness)
Eph. 5:21 I am not sure what you are really asking here, and if the discussion is moving in a different direction. The verse is self-evident.
Prov. 16:18-19 my response here is the same as for Eph. 5:21.

What are you attempting to say?

Sean Trank • So you assumed that I assumed and now it is only my assumption that you called me a Moron?

Your response is very rash and aggressive, there is no love in it and this conversation is over.

 

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About Sean Trank

My name is Sean Trank. I aspire to help those who want to succeed. I am a promoter of many things and I love making good ideas known. I also have a unique sense of humor that has been honed and shaped from having a Jewish Christian background...or maybe it is because my childhood house had lead-based paint. Ok so please explore this website .

2 responses »

  1. Bob Trank says:

    Sean that was a very interesting encounter you and Aaron had with Richard. God uses people to spread the message, never have I heard it done through Osmosis. Even after becoming a believer and walking with Jesus I still have my faults. My testimony is not my perfect life, because none of us have it here on Earth, My testimony is what Jesus did for me and I will tell anyone that will listen. .

  2. I believe God reaches different people in different ways. Some people can be told, others must be shown, and others just need to find their own way in the lessons God provides. In the same way, some people articulate their testimony while others display their testimony in their actions and attitudes. God uses different people in different ways, He alone knows what is best and will draw a seeker to the perfect witness for that individual.

    I am reminded of 1 Kings 19:11-12 (NKJV)
    11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; 12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.

    God does not show up the way we think is best. God shows up the way He knows is best.

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